Breastfeeding Unplugged
Breastfeeding Unplugged
10 Things You Never Knew About Breastfeeding
Make no mistake, breastfeeding is hard. It’s one of the things that most people won’t tell you about when you’re pregnant. Most moms think that breastfeeding is "natural" and that it will come easy, but if you think about it, how could it? As a momma, you’ve never done this before. Your baby is in the same boat. So how can we possibly think that the feeding bond will be a beautiful, instant connection?
Welcome to "Breastfeeding Unplugged," a podcast brought to you by Nest Collaborative. Every week, we will be coming at you with a brand new topic - some will cover the basics, like “Common Misconceptions” or “Keeping Up Your Milk Supply” while others will tackle more niche ideas such as “Breastfeeding Innovations” and “Knowing Your Pumping Rights at Work.” Our goal is to have real conversations with the best experts in the business to make sure you feel supported and most certainly not alone In your breastfeeding journey.
It was so tough to pick a topic for this first podcast but when we got together to talk about it, we all found ourselves chatting a lot about misinformation and how so many moms are confused about breastfeeding because of advice they got from family and friends, or because they simply didn’t know what to expect from day one. So today we’re going to chat about the 10 Things You Never Knew About Breastfeeding with my very special guest, Joanna Kreyling.
From nipple pain to milk production and everything In between, join us for this 30-minute episode and meet your new breastfeeding friends. We look forward to hanging with you!
[Intro] Welcome mamas and mamas to be. My name is Amanda Gorman and I am so thrilled to introduce you to Breastfeeding Unplugged, a podcast dedicated to helping moms navigate their way through the tricky world of breastfeeding. Since this is our first podcast, I wanted to introduce myself to you and talk a little bit about how I got here today. Firstly, I am a mom of two small children, Josey and Harold. I live in Connecticut with my husband, Ryan, who is a family physician and our two kids. I'm a board certified pediatric nurse practitioner and throughout my career I worked all around the country as an ER nurse and also in perioperative nursing. I've worked in New York City, Washington, DC, Los Angeles and San Francisco. After eight years in the ER, I transitioned into pediatric primary care and I first discovered this problem of inadequate access to resources for us moms trying to breastfeed. Here, I was trying to do the right thing and advocate for my newborns and their moms and all of them needed help breastfeeding. And I realized I as their pediatric provider had no idea how to help them. Of course, I then had my children later and there I was one of the many moms who struggle with breastfeeding. I was constantly frustrated by the lack of support I received from my pediatric professionals, my OB. I found myself completely feeling alone and at the mercy of unreliable Dr. Google. So a few years ago, I decided to start this company called Nest Collaborative. It's really just a network of international board certified lactation consultants, who you'll hear us refer to as IBCLC's. Our team conducts online video visits to help guide moms through the breastfeeding process and we see moms all over the country and all around the world. I really just saw this as an avenue to help moms succeed in whatever their journey, whatever their goals are. I wanted to help them navigate a little bit easier than the experience I had. Make no mistake, breastfeeding is hard. It's one of the things that most people won't tell you about when you're pregnant. The focus seems to always be on labor and delivery and your birth plan. Then bam, all of a sudden, you have a tiny human, you're being told to go home and you're taking him home in your arms and have no idea what to do. You've got to feed and take care of this little nugget without really any real preparation. Most moms think that breastfeeding is natural, and it's going to come easy. But if you really think about it, how could it as a mom? You've never done this before your baby is in the same boat. So how can we possibly think that the feeding bond will be a beautiful and instant connection? That brings us to where we are today. My team of IBCLC's and I decided that it was time to deliver new moms just like you all of the information that you need - the good, the bad, and certainly the ugly - to make sure that you feel confident about your breastfeeding journey. If you're pregnant with your first, we got you covered. And if you're a second time, third time, or even a fifth time mom whose past experiences were less than thrilling with breastfeeding, we're looking out for you too. Our goal really at Nest Collaborative is to make sure that moms have all the resources and information possible to make the best decisions for themselves and their babies. And definitely just to make breastfeeding a success from one-on-one coaching to this very podcast. So every week we'll be coming to you with a brand new topic. Some will cover the basics like common misconceptions or keeping up with your milk supply, while others will tackle more niche ideas such as breastfeeding innovations and knowing your pumping rights at work. We'll even dive into more controversial topics such as booze and breastfeeding and why boobs might leak during sex. Our aim is to have really real conversations with the best experts in the business to make sure you feel supported, and most certainly not alone. So let's jump right in. It was kind of tough to pick a topic for this first podcast but when our team got together to talk about it, we all found ourselves chatting a lot about misinformation and how so many moms are confused about breastfeeding because of the advice they got from family or friends or because they simply just didn't know what to expect from day one. So today we're going talk about 10 Things You Never Knew About Breastfeeding with my very special guest, Joanna Kreyling. Joanna began working in pediatrics as a registered nurse before going back to school to get her own pediatric nurse practitioner degree with a specialization in primary care. While working in pediatric offices, she felt like many of us did - that there just simply wasn't enough information or resources to support breastfeeding families. She knew the benefits of breastfeeding and decided to pursue a path to become an IBCLC. So to help moms get that one on one advice that they really needed most. In addition to all of this, Joanna is also our Director of Clinical Operations at Nest Collaborative, and a mom to three girls, and one adorable little boy, John. Joanna, we are very thrilled to have you as our very first guest. So welcome.
Joanna Kreyling:Thank you so much for having me.
Amanda Gorman:I am so excited to chat with you because I don't think there are very many people who have quite as much experience as you and our team when it comes to breastfeeding, both professionally and personally, as you are still breastfeeding number four. And so thank you.
Joanna Kreyling:Wow, thank you for having me. Yeah, I guess it's a bit of a lot. You know, I still laugh because people say you have four kids? Yeah, yeah, we're just crazy.
Amanda Gorman:One of the things that you say really drove you to pursue this passion as an IBCLC, along with being a nurse practitioner was because you felt like women were underprepared to start with. Is that right?
Joanna Kreyling:Yeah, I totally agree with that, and at school, we got this very brief, explanation and it was more like, what to do if the baby's not gaining weight or if the baby has jaundice, but it really wasn't how do you look at the baby and know the latch is good, and know the latch is optimal in terms of milk transfer. So if that baby is successful in breastfeeding, that Mom is successful as well. I found that, throughout my career working in primary care, between the nurse practitioners and the physicians, we just really didn't know enough and often very inadvertently provided well meaning, but very inadequate breastfeeding support to these moms. And, and some of the advice could actually be damaging to the breastfeeding relationship.
Amanda Gorman:Yeah, absolutely. And one of the things we do always talk about is just how little women know about the breastfeeding journey, and how little they get from their ancillary providers, and not just the pediatric side. But also when they first have their babies. I think we can agree that OB's and midwives, they do a great job of getting us prepared for labor and certainly getting the baby out. But once the baby's in her arms, it kind of just feels like we're on our own.
Joanna Kreyling:It does. And you take those little classes, and they tell you, you know babies should eat every two to three hours, but it's not really the empowerment to know what we should do if things don't seem to be to be going the way they should be.
Amanda Gorman:Yeah, 100%. So, let's jump into some things that most women don't know about breastfeeding and the common misconceptions that we hear every day from mamas that are truly in the thick of it. So first, let's talk about the obvious one, pain. We hear this all the time, we see a lot of new moms every week from all over the country at Nest Collaborative. And they all come to us in pain, a lot of them. So is breastfeeding really supposed to hurt?
Joanna Kreyling:It's really not supposed to hurt. And if you think about it, nobody would do this if it hurts all the time. I have a lot of prenatals where the moms are fearful about pain. I have a lot of postpartum visits, where the moms will say to me, "Well, all my friends say that it is okay" or "it's expected for it to hurt and for your nipples to crack and bleed the first couple weeks". This is just this is false. This is false information. And what I tell mom is that it's going to be like a very strong tug on your finger. Your nipple tissue, is- it's sensitive, right? So it is going to be a new sensation, the first couple seconds, it might be like, "Oh my gosh," but it's not normal for you to have cracked, bleeding, bruised nipples. And if you do, you know, that's when you really need to seek help, because the baby is not going to transfer good milk that way. That's not something just to be like, "Oh, this will get better". And if they're cracked and bleeding, it means that that that baby's not latched on properly. Either the way we're trying to help baby or maybe baby has a tongue tie that's causing them to not be able to pull the nipple back all the way to that soft palate. It's slamming up against that hard palate, and that's why you're getting that cracking and bleeding. So yeah, I mean, I just really, it breaks my heart when I talk to moms, and they're like, "well, I thought it was supposed to hurt and I thought I was supposed to have bleeding and all of this." And no, none of it should do this.
Amanda Gorman:Oh, yeah, no, it's completely confusing for new moms. There are tons of women out there who just really assume breastfeeding is going to be natural, that it's this easy bond, then there are others who are completely terrified, because they actually may have heard how difficult it can be. What do you think?
Joanna Kreyling:You know, honestly, I think it can be either. I absolutely talk to moms who do zero preparation, and it goes beautifully. And I talk to moms that have done all the preparation, and something doesn't go according to plan. But I really, I feel like in America, we have a lot of fears about breastfeeding. Whether it's low milk supply or pain or that it's going to be really hard or inconvenient. And I think, really, we need to figure out why we have those messages out there and what we can do about it. I don't think women should be afraid of breastfeeding. I think they should be aware, you know, what is normal, what's not normal, they need to learn to advocate for themselves and their babies. They are the experts on their own body and their baby. Maybe they haven't breastfed before. But I tell you what, these moms are so intuitive, and they know something's not right. They don't know what it is necessarily, but they they know something's not right. So if breastfeeding is something you really, really want to do, I really encourage moms, you know, if it's not taking our prenatal breastfeeding class, one on one, through Nest Collaborative, read books on breastfeeding, where the writers are lactation consultants. Okay, you hear that in the back? Don't read a book on breastfeeding, where the author is not a Board Certified Lactation Consultant. Go to or attend a virtual La Leche League Meeting. I mean, you should really know, ahead of time, know normal versus not normal, because that's gonna really help you in those early days.
Amanda Gorman:Absolutely. And so how about this idea of kind of one size fits all, you know, what, what works for this mom should work for you. And that's, you know, a lot of where we're garnering our information is from our friends that have preceded us. So you know, what works for me, it's got to work for you. Is this the case?
Joanna Kreyling:Not necessarily. Breastfeeding support is, I mean, having a friend and cheering you on. I'll never forget the one friend who was like, give it one more week, you need to give it one more week. And that was with my second kiddo. And I mean, I wouldn't be here today, if it wasn't for that one friend. But you know, I think about it, like, you know, your body is not the same as your friend's body. Your baby is not the same as your friend's baby. So what works for one person may not work for another person. We all have, you know, differences. And, you know, just thinking, you know, what makes sense for her doesn't necessarily make the best sense or work for you.
Amanda Gorman:Yep, definitely makes sense. So, let's, let's talk about milk quantity or milk supply? It's, you know, we know, it's a huge stress trigger for moms who feel like, they aren't producing enough milk, or are they producing too much milk? You know, is there an actual normal amount of milk for women to be producing?
Joanna Kreyling:Absolutely. They have done studies where they ultrasound the babies' bellies to see, you know, what an average intake of a breastfed baby is, and the answer a-, you know, your supply's established about six weeks. So, you know, when your milk comes in, and it's well established, and, you know, it's going to be about, you know, two to three ounces. And, you know, it's not, it's not really the milk quantity that changes as your baby gets older. It's the it's what's inside that milk. You know, the, the fat contents and the hormones and everything changed even within a 24 hour period. Your milk is not the same in the morning as it is at nighttime. So, you know, it's really important just to watch, watch the baby and, you know, I hear a lot of people you know, when even with even with baby John, I'd go online, and he was the first one that I was looking at this, these silicone hand pumps, like the Haakaa, and then watch these women and these videos. And they were, they were expressing, like, six, seven ounces, in their Haakaa, and I'm just like what. Like, you know, even though I'm a lactation consultant, and, you know, pediatric nurse practitioner I'm still thinking, well, I'm not pumping that much. Well, that's not normal. Right? That's way too much. That's, that's not normal. So, you know, looking at your baby, is your baby- learning your baby. Is your baby satisfied, you know, do your breasts feel more comfortable? And you know, what is what is their output? Are they peeing and pooping? Are they gaining weight, then you're good, you don't need to, you know, to worry so much about, you know, if you're, if you're producing enough, because babies are not predictable people. And they nurse for a lot of reasons. Like I joke with my clients, like if the dog barked, and wakes them up, they might be mad about that, and you have to nurse them so they go back to sleep. And that doesn't mean that you didn't have enough milk, it just means that, you know, they got annoyed.
Amanda Gorman:Right? So just to clarify, you know, once the milk, the milk supply is established, and you say, you know, kind of normal intake is two to three ounces. But that's not necessarily what moms will see if they're pumping, if they're exclusively putting baby to the breast. Is that the case?
Joanna Kreyling:Right. Right. And that's, you know, why we really want to watch the baby and not the clock, because, you know, I'll give mom's the example, when I went back to work with one of my kiddos in the morning, my morning pump would be like six ounces, my middle of the day pump would be like, four and my afternoon pump would be you know, I don't remember it was like three or four, somebody said it went down throughout the day. And that is normal. Is that something that you're seeing and you're worrying about? It- that is, that's normal and to be expected. So your pump is never going to remove milk as well as your baby is. And that's why I get very annoyed when you know, I hear that providers are wanting moms to pump to see how much milk they're making? Well, you know, how good is the mom's pump? Are the flanges cracked? You know, what time of day is she pumping? Like there's so many factors there that it's just not, it's just not the best way to know if your baby's getting enough to eat.
Amanda Gorman:Gotcha. So well, let's talk about breast size. So bigger boobs more milk, is that the correlation?
Joanna Kreyling:Well, that is actually not true. Breast milk storage capacity is something that's completely independent of breast size. I have worked with many small breasted women with oversupply and I've worked with women with very large breasts that have low milk supply. And, you know, it really comes down to why and you know, maybe they have a thyroid issue, or maybe they use their Haakaa a whole lot in early days or you know, whatever it is that that can, can sometimes contribute to these these uh, milk supply being more or less, but some of it honestly, it's just genetic. It's how you are built, your duct sizes, and how much your breasts can comfortably hold. I mean, certain women, their breasts are physically very uncomfortable when they're holding a certain number of ounces, but another woman, it's just like, it's fine.
Amanda Gorman:Interesting. So my next question and topic is something that's a little personal to me. And it's surrounding whether or not each boob are equal in what they produce. And, and I know this is not the case. But I want to know, what should a woman do if there's a marked difference in supply? Because I know it's not what I did, which was ignore it. I actually ended up feeding my son almost three years from one boob exclusively. So how should mom's address unequal supply earlier than say, I did.
Joanna Kreyling:Listen, listen, firstly, if that works for you guys, cool on you. But you know, if you want help for your slacker boob, we are here too. I often tell women, you know, it's normal to have a deadness side. Oftentimes women, you know, a half an ounce, an ounce difference. And that's normal, it's not, you know, our feet are not the same size. They're just not, you know, our hands are not the same size, our breasts are not, you know, perfectly the same size either. So if it bothers you, you know, in terms of your comfort, or maybe you're extremely lost, and can't find a bra with it. Talking to a lactation consultant, you know, right off the bat, things I would suggest would be start on the lower producer, when you're nursing on the lower producer, doing that massage, doing compressions really trying to empty that side out very thoroughly. And so that, you know, you're you're optimizing everything out of that breast and then moving to the higher supply breast and if you want to pump on the lower breast, um, lower yielding breast that would kind of stimulate more supply in that side. But yeah, I mean, a little bit, not a big deal. But if it bothers you, there's definitely things that can be done.
Amanda Gorman:If only I had known. So what about the relationship between breastfeeding and pumping. You know, pumping is essential for good supply?
Joanna Kreyling:No. I mean, now that I feel like, I get asked a lot about pumping and going back to work, and a lot of these things very early on. Women feel like, okay, I have to have the baby, my insurance company, they sent me this pump. So I should be using it, right, like this is this is the way it should work? And the answer is no, you don't, you don't have to pump to have that good supply of milk. If you are following your baby's cues, and nursing when they're hungry, then you don't need you don't need to be pumping. And, you know, if you do need to be pump- so say, say you nurse your baby and you think like, oh my gosh, you know, the baby did a really good job on this side, but it still feels really hard. I mean, that would be a reason to talk to an IBCLC. You know, is the latch not great? Do you have an oversupply, like what is going on? You can actually give yourself an oversupply by pumping too much in those early days. And I've worked with a lot of women, "Oh my gosh, oversupply would be so great. That would be, that would be lovely." You know, over supply, you know, I've seen babies that don't want to nurse directly because it's like a fire hose. I've seen babies that are very colicky and unhappy because of all of the gas and, you know, the very quick transit through their G.I system. And so, really, just just in, in those, I always encourage moms in those early days, just work on getting that latch, right. And getting that those [unknown] completed and get some sleep. Like you will have so much time to pump later. And it's not the most fun thing. So you know, enjoy your baby, learn your baby, learn how to latch your baby. And enjoy that time. There's so much time to pump later. If you do want to pump, you know, talking again to the lactation consultant on how do we do that, how do we pump so that it's comfortable, it doesn't cause my nipples damage. I don't have myself a crazy oversupply that, you know, I end up with [unknown] and all of these terrible things. So, you know, no, you don't need, you don't need the pump. And if you do feel like you have to pump to keep your milk supply up. Why is that? What's what's going on that that you're having to do all that extra pumping? Is there an issue with the latch, you know what, what's going on? Because you really shouldn't have to. And again, talking to the lactation consultant, having them watch a feed is really going to help you there.
Amanda Gorman:Awesome. That's great to know. So enough talk about baby getting fed. Let's chat about what moms should be eating. Are there any specific foods that help with milk production?
Joanna Kreyling:The the studies on that are not really there. There's you know, ve- culturally, you'll see a lot of variances around the world about what foods are really good for milk supply. In America, there's lots of talk about oatmeal, and blue Gatorade, and coconut water, and a dark beer before bed and you know just these different, different things and there's really not research that supports those. What I always say is let you know, eat, eat for what you know, eat a healthy diet, and make sure that you are eating because there are some moms out there that you know get very caught up in the busy, busy busy of having a newborn that they aren't taking care of themselves. They are not stopping to eat. They're not napping, they're not doing those things that they need to do, you know in those early days to keep keep their mental health and their physical health and all of those things in balance. So if you want to eat oatmeal in the morning, eat oatmeal, eat all the lactation cookies you want, if you find, you know, I would say there's, you know, just because there's not a study doesn't mean that it- there- isn't some truth in it. So if you find that you, when you eat oatmeal, you have better milk supply then go for it. I'm not going to tell you, you're wrong. And really, the, the ones that they have the good research on would be more like that, that Fenugreek. And like the[unknown], you know, some of those that, that there's a little bit more scientific evidence that it's beneficial. But, you know, when it comes to studies and lactating moms, it's, it's kind of a- kind of a hard sell to to do studies on moms that are breastfeeding. So you know, we only have the studies and the research that we have. It can be a bit limited.
Amanda Gorman:That makes sense. Let me move on to leaking. It seems moms are a little surprised about leaking milk, both both prenatally and postpartum. So let's talk about that a bit.
Joanna Kreyling:So your breasts may or may not leak. You know, I have worked prenatally with some women that are very worried about it. And, or, you know, in postpartum, they're very worried about it. And, you know, breasts leak, for a variety of reasons. You know, they leak or your milk lets down, when oxytocin is released. So if you think about nursing your baby, or you hear a baby cry, or you put your baby to the breast, or it's the usual time that you normally feed your baby. It can cause leaking, and it can cause leaking on both sides. Not all women leak, and this is, you know, something I always talk to moms about is, you know, when your milk supply is still learning to be what your baby needs it to be in those six weeks. You know, it's not I wouldn't panic a whole lot about the leaking during that period, because it it may change or improve. A lot of that has to do also with genetics, and how tight your junctures are. Some people leak, some people don't leak. If you don't leak it doesn't mean that you don't have milk, you know. So, you know, you can leak or not, and you leak on both sides. That's that's a that's a big surprise for moms. And like, I don't know why I'm leaking on both sides, and the baby's only nursing on one side? Well, the oxytocin doesn't really know. Now oxytocin doesn't really know that when you are having some relations with your husband, and you come to release, that that same oxytocin might cause leaking at that time, too. And again, I you know, I tell women about that, if they want to know about it, but again, it's something that may or may not happen. So, you know.
Amanda Gorman:Hey, the more information we have, the more we know.
Joanna Kreyling:Well, you know, no one ever told me about it. Like that's like, you know, not not in the book. No.
Amanda Gorman:No, didn't cover. Dr. Spock didn't cover that one.
Joanna Kreyling:I didn't have that in my PNP program.
Amanda Gorman:No, certainly not. So listen, above all else, we know how beneficial breastfeeding is for baby. It certainly is by far the healthiest to feed our babies. But what I don't think moms realize is how beneficial breastfeeding is to their health. Can you talk about that?
Joanna Kreyling:Oh, yeah. I mean, it's, it's very, you know, I think that that's something really important to touch on is it you know, it's, it's beneficial for for you and your your body in terms of, you know, diabetes, depression, osteoporosis, and reducing your rates for ovarian and breast cancers and heart disease, high blood pressure. So, you know, it has a lot of benefits to moms. Some moms, it helps them lose weight. I definitely was not in that category. But sometimes it does. It can also delay your period, which is super, super nice if you're one of those moms that that falls into that category of not getting a period. Quite quite nice.
Amanda Gorman:I was not so there's some variants in that.
Joanna Kreyling:I am so haha.
Amanda Gorman:Good for you. Good for you, J. Listen, Joanna, we said, we talked about 10 things you didn't know about breastfeeding, but I'm pretty sure we've covered a lot more than that. I feel like you and I could probably go on forever. But unfortunately, that's all the time that we actually have for today. We'd love to have you back again to answer some more questions if you'd be up for it. But in the meantime, how can listeners get in touch with you if they have any questions or just would like to book a consult?
Joanna Kreyling:Well, they just need to go to Nestcollaborative.com. Book now and find me there. If you know they can call the number. It's, you know, I'm around, that's for sure. But you know, everyone on our team is awesome. That's what I always say. Everyone on our team is awesome. We're all good. And we see each other's people because we love each other. And we always want what's best in terms of mom's timing and needs. So yeah, I'm definitely I'm around.
Amanda Gorman:Yes. And, and you're right, we really we really work hard so that moms know that no matter what day they come to Nest Collaborative, or who they see, that they're always going to get the best quality of care and a consistent level of care. So absolutely. I hope moms will check you out. So that's really great. Thank you so much for being our guest here on the first episode of Breastfeeding Unplugged. We certainly can't wait until you visit us again next time.
Joanna Kreyling:Well, I am definitely up for a next time.
Amanda Gorman:Awesome. So mamas and mamas to be that is our very first episode for you. We hope you liked what you heard, and we will be back next week with another titillating topic to help you along your breastfeeding journey. Please don't forget to check us out on Facebook at facebook.com/breastfeedingunplugged or Instagram at instagram.com/breastfeedingunplugged, where we will have links to a full transcription of today's podcast. Please be sure to also visit us at breastfeedingunplugged.com to learn more about upcoming shows and to submit your questions. Until next week. It's me Amanda, wishing you very well. Boo bye.[Outro]